Storytime with Drew Tucker

Storytime with Drew from Quest for the Crown

Neil: The point of this is to give a global set of information about Drew to the audience. It's kind of fast forwarding your relationship with Drew. He's been around the games a long time. Ideally, I'm just going to ask questions for maybe 15 to 20 minutes. Drew is going to talk about whatever he wants in those responses and then hopefully after some period of time people are willing to ask their own pet question because I understand it can be intimidating when at events that you may not actually go talk to the artist and maybe we'll see what happens here.

N: So this is Drew Tucker. You've seen him around all day. The things that are interesting to me…I like to know where artists got the idea to professionally pursue art. To me, that concept is crazy because other than Sam McKinnon sitting right over there looking at us, the idea of just throwing caution to the wind and saying, "Yeah, I can sell my art" is so foreign. So when did you get the first idea that you could do art as a profession?

Drew: Right? I'm still questioning that. Yeah, I do art as a profession, right? Like that is like the sole thing that I do. I was thinking about and I don't know if I told you that. I think I always did art. When I was a little little kid, when I was like nine, I would go around and I recently found this in my studio. I've got this little portfolio book, you know, and it's got all these Christmas cards in it. I used to make Christmas cards and tags and I'd go around the neighborhood or around like my parents' church and stuff and I'd hawk these Christmas cards that I'd made. Then you know at the same time during school…the other boys in school would steal pages out of their father's Playboys, and bring them to me; and I would draw the dirty pictures for them for money. So I've always been doing illustration in some weird way.

D: You know even there on the back of those Playboy pictures were like these gorgeous illustrations which I find out are by Marshall Arisman. Later on, I go to New York to study under Marshall, but I've always been drawing and painting. That's just what I do…or that's what I told my mom…I grew up in the time where parents left the house for hours or kicked you out for the day, right? And because they don't want you, I guess. There's a specific story where my mom I guess she had to go shopping or she's doing something for the church. I'm not sure what it was. And she left and I was drawing feet and she came back like four hours later and the room is like scattered with feet. I just stayed the whole time and I drew feet. I think I’ve just always drawn. I've always made things.

D: I grew up in a very religious household. I’m adopted and the joke in my family is “he's not one of us” which is like a weird joke but they were kind of right. I had tried to get work at the Southern Baptist Convention at one point because I wanted to make my parents happy. They were always “you got to paint for God, you got to do these things”, and so I made this thing out of the crucifixion, right? It was like seven paintings and they were pulpy and they were like kind of sankitsy, you know, so a lot of line work and stuff. I think I just got done watching Pink Floyd “The Wall” or something. When I went to the Baptist convention to their art director where they make these little Sunday school books, right? And I gave him the portfolio and he's flipping through it slowly and kind of shudders and then closes the book and he pushes it to me and said “I never want to see you here again. We don't want you. We don't want your type.” Which you know there was like a freedom or release which was weird.

D: Then I go up to Washington. But the point to that, like I besides just some horrible random story about childhood was like I always made stuff. I was always drawing. I was always painting. I tried to be a graphic designer for a while. That's what I originally went to school for because I think my family always encouraged me to do artwork, which was really nice. Then there's a side story to that, too. Like, as a little boy, it's after church. Oh, by the way, I'm going to apologize because I will talk in huge ugly circles that kind of connect, so bear with me. I might answer a question. I probably won't at the same time. There was a fine art book on the coffee table, just a big old coffee table book, you know, sculptures, all the old stuff. It’s before Sunday brunch, before the preacher came over to eat with us and stuff. And I was looking at it like, "Oh, this is the coolest stuff." And my mom called us in to eat. Then after brunch, I went back to go see this artwork. To find this book and it's gone. I'm like, "Mom, where's this book?" Like, "Oh, I don't know that we've ever had an art book in the house." It wasn't until my father's passing 10 years ago, and I had to help clean up everything that I found that art book. And so, I think some of this is like it was forbidden fruit. It was some do what your parents tell you to do. It was very strange because they always encouraged me to do artwork but that was kind of like something bad at the same time which was so strange. But it was because of whatever religious ramifications were in there for them. I'm really grasping right now. So like I always made artwork. I always tried to make artwork and sell it. That's like what you know, little Christmas cards and things. I don't think I had a choice. If you name your kid Drew, you probably are just, you know, that's what he gets to do. There's not an option. I think that's kind of what happened. If I had my birth name, because I was adopted, if I had that, like it was Tori. I'm like, that's not an art name. He's not going to be a painter later on. So I think I had no choice. That's just what it was.

N: I tried to pass around my phone with some paintings by Arisman. And when I look at those paintings, to me, they just scream exactly you. So, how did you discover Arisman? How did you approach it? How does that…because it seems it's you.

N: I did discover Arisman when I was nine on the back of those little nudie pics that like the kids would bring in and they'd get in trouble later. But on the back of those were like these gorgeous illustrations and I went “oh my god this is really cool”. Not until much later do I realize who it is. Then many many years later I go to SVA in New York because he's the lead instructor. He’s the illustration of the master class. So I go and studied under him because of it. But yeah it was the introduction because of like that weird little recess sidekick.

Marshall Arisman, 1970

N: So you're saying you're 9 years old, you see the nudie mag and you just like get that impression of the art. It is on your mind.

D: It's always and then for a decade because there's emotion and there's this…they're to me back then and to me now and illustration itself is more than a commercial thing, right? Like to me…and I think it's because my parents took those books away, right? Is that in illustration everybody can have a piece of art, everybody can have, you know, a fine painting and this access to it. We didn't go to a lot of museums and that's how I would take in artwork and so there I think that was really important.

N: So you will end up being a teacher later. Were there things that Arisman taught you? I know you talked when we talked before, taking flashcards of emotions and having paintings or drawing those emotions which is a novel thing to me. But is that partly of how Arisman was teaching?

D: Not at all! He didn't teach it at all. He was just the figure head of the department, right? Every once in a while he'd come around and go like, "Oh, that's so weird” “I don't want to see this." He didn't…it was strange because he had a huge gravity. I mean, bring in people. He brought in like Sendak and Maurice Sendak is like I always wanted to meet him, but not on a bad day…and I got to see him on a bad day and he was like, "Oh, your hero's been trashed. He was such a jerk." But you know, he was having a bad day. I think his dog passed or something and that was rough. Marshall didn't necessarily interact with us, which was really strange. But there were other really great instructors there. He’d like hang out and smoke cigarettes in his office.

N: Because your art just feels so inspired by what he was doing.

D: But that might also be why I didn't or he didn't interact with me that much cuz there, you know, if there's a mirror, that's not necessarily good because you want…I think you want to encourage people to be themselves as much as possible. If there's an inkling of too much similarity maybe that was a thing. Though to me my stuff is different. Though some of the thought processes are really good. But I was, even at that point, I'm still like I've always been like a huge hermit. So I just go in there and I paint and I draw and then I draw away and I'd go back to Jersey. Then like in the morning I'd show back up and I'd do my work and yeah it was weird. Sometimes I think some people had more interactions with them than I did. Not that I didn't have a lot. Like he would…like of course I smoke far too many cigarettes. Don't smoke cigarettes. But we'd go in his office, he'd buy bottles of wine, we'd sit and paint like for the evening. So, I'd have that kind interaction more than like “this is how I paint”. He'd bring you to his studio every once in a while and then everybody would copy his thing. So, I think that's some of why he wasn't like a lead teacher, but like the figure head of the department, if that makes sense.

N: 100%.

D: Sometime…No, that's just something that I shouldn't say out loud.

N: Does Dexter need to leave the room?

D: No, no, no, no, no, not at all. Not at all. You don't have to. You don't have to leave the room. Like, not at all. It was just something in my own head going like, "Oh, that's just being like the ruin of myself where I don't think it was ever necessary." So yeah.

N: Then if we fast forward because I'll hand it over to other people if they want to ask. So you go through this formal education in art having nothing to do with fantasy art if I recall. And obviously Magic didn't exist at the time because you end up being a part of Magic but like Dungeons and Dragons must have existed.

D: Dungeons and Dragons existed. I got to play Dungeons and Dragons but in hiding. My family still is hyper religious. Right. They're Southern Baptist. They were like heavy thumb Southern Baptists. So, I played Dungeon and Dragons, my friend Dave Ruterski's house, on Wednesdays, under the guise that what we were going to do, I can't remember. But it was never “I'm going to play Dungeons and Dragons” because it's also during the whole Satanic Panic thing. And they were really worried about it. If my parents found out they would have just been like beside themselves and I would have been in special camp at that point too because it was that kind of deal. So I played Dungeon and Dragons but it was in secret. I did so many things in secret. They're awesome folks, Southern Baptists. Which is honestly, you know, like I totally respect them. It just never quite took because everything was stories to me…or mythologies and you know, stories to help you learn and that doesn't quite work with that sort of organization. So Dungeon and Dragons did exist and I'm in Washington. This is before I go to SVA even. So I started working when I was around 23. I think I was up in Washington then 23- 24 years old. So it's 1993, side note, my father, like anybody prior to Common Core, my father, most math that was taught was because of how he instructed teachers to teach kids. Which is just weird. So, they were highly intelligent, too…and to drop back to my parents they always encouraged me to do art. Once I started doing fantasy work, my parents were like, "Oh, it's so amazing that you're able to work. I hate your paintings. I don't ever want to see what you do. But we're so happy for you.” Because to them it's evil. It’s like, you know, Harry Potter taught you how to do witchcraft. But they were always encouraging but not necessarily pleased with the result of it. Which is confusing…it's a confusing thing.

N: Do you feel like what we would know you for is that actually your voice on the canvas?

D: Oh gosh. Yeah. 100%.

N: Okay. So like when we see Power Leak or like Old School Magic cards that captures you at that time?

D: That captures me as an angry 20-year-old trying to work out my problems because like most of those if you think about it like Power Leak, Holy Light, Flare, which was Wrath of God, that's what it was assigned to. The Icatian Priest, which I end up doing a hillbilly priest or no, that was the exorcist one. So yeah, I have hillbilly church stories, too. Actual stories that I thought were hilarious. But yeah, all of this absolutely is me because I've always thought like a good painting or a good illustration…I always thought illustration and painting is the same thing at least. Up until like…what is that like 17…my art history is bad. I never taught art history by the way because it's so abysmal. Um, but like up until the French Salon, you know, you got the industrial revolution, now you have paint in the tubes, and now you have artists painting on their own. Everything prior to that is an illustration. It's paid for and it's delivering like a symbolic language if not a lesson from the church. So, I've always thought it's illustration. That didn't answer your question. What's the question?

N: Your voice? Your voice is in the art? So when we see the modern cards that you make for Sorcery, they still…I would assume everyone agrees…they all look like Drew, but they're different.

D: I'm the only reference that I'm using, right? No, I'm just kidding. But it's true. Well, they do all look like me. Yes. No, because it is though. Like every once in a while, there's one that doesn't look like me.

N: Men of Leng.

D: That's the one. Yeah. No, no. There's all sorts of horrible photographs of me and my phone like this. Yeah, don't get a hold of my phone. It's shocking. I use myself a lot but the voice is mine. The early stuff the voice was mine. Now the voice is mine as well. It's I just learned how to paint in 30 years, you know, like that's a lot of practice. Which makes me a lot better. But yeah, sadly the joke is I am my own reference so often. That's the price of being a hermit.

N: You say that, but you're married.

D: Right.

N: How are you a hermit if you're married?

D: Yeah, that's a good question. How am I?

N: Or do you not see your spouse every day?

D: Yeah. Like I think she doesn't want to see me every day because I'm always around. Like it's got to be annoying. It's a hermit as in my socializing is not as what it used to be.

N: So then how do you explain the 20-minute answers to a question?

D: Right?

N: Because your socializing seems to be okay.

D: No, I freaking love it. But yeah I want to pretend I don't get out much either because there's a bar down the hill that I love. It's called Paddy's.

N: Social hermit?

D: Absolutely! I'm a social hermit. Yeah, that's it. That's it…

N: He really doesn't want to be there, but he'll be there every time.

D: No, I love being there. See? It's really hard.

N: You're breaking the social hermit mold.

D: Yeah. No, it's hard. It's a hard mold to hold, I guess. I still want to say I'm a hermit. I mean when I go back to Maine, I'm going to go back to like Katie's there. My dog's there. Yeah. But I talk to everybody in the neighborhood, so I guess I'm not. But like I don't use people for…I want to be a hermit someday. That would be so cool. But that means you did something and that you had to shut yourself away from too. That's where you get hermits, right? Like the old swordsmen in Japan. Like they had so many battles that they had to go off in the cave and hide or write poetry to kind of cleanse it. But I don't think that's going to happen. Nobody besides as long as you hide in a cave later on. I think that's highly frightening.

N: Killing people?

D: Yeah. Nobody likes that.

N: Don't do that, Dexter. No cigarettes, no killing. We'll make a list. Don't be a hermit. We got it all.

D: There's a pretty good list.

Audience: When you’re saying your voice was…like and I honestly don't know how much the artists that during that time knew the cards that they were paying for drawings for. But I was going to say the cards that stand out to me are like…I think Dandan's a pretty famous one because it's like very good...you also have something completely abstract like High Tide.

D: See, which I think is hilarious because everybody says my stuff's abstract. That's totally how I see things. So I don't know what's wrong with you.

Drew Tucker, Dandan

Audience: We’re in the wrong…like we're a drunk.

D: No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. But like they always gave me the very abstract things. Let's compare Sorcery to the beginning of Magic because this is still the beginning of this game. In the beginning of Magic, Magic doesn't exist. All you have is Dungeons and Dragons. So everything that they give you…they don't give you like “oh, we want this and this card” or “we want this” or “it's going to play this way.” You know, nothing! Jesper would call me up on the phone because like the email is not quite working yet. It's the beginning of the computers and everything, and he'd call you up and he'd be like I want you to pick five things and he'll read off a list. Just names. Just words and he’d go “pick five.” Like that one sounds cool and this sounds cool . Then you get to go with it like what the heck is a Necrite, right? Like who knows what that is. What's Holy Light? How do you pull that out? What's a Power Leak? Okay. Dandan at least we have Arabian Nights to back you up, because it all comes out of that literature. But for the most part, none of the stuff exists. So, you get to invent everything and that's like some of the freedom of that early Magic work is there's nothing to hold you. Nothing to tell you what it is, except the names of the cards and they're giving me abstract things.So I'm also an angry 20-year-old. Like I'm a little punk. I'm dealing with my own like stupid growing up issues that we do. That we've all done in this room or will. Because you're trying to learn what you are and who you are and you're getting these abstract thoughts given to you and how do you work this out? And so a lot of that early stuff is me working out or like “oh man, I'm so mad at this” you know? So, and the funnier part is you get bound by that. None of you guys are what you were 20 years ago. Like there's how many different us’s are there. We keep on growing and building, but in illustration, they like to hold you. Because, if they know, you know, I got this box, I can shove you here. That's really cool. So like the beginning of Magic is magical because it doesn't exist and we all got to build it up from the ground floor. We're also lucky that Jesper was looking very specifically for all sorts of voices, not just fantasy artists. If he was looking for just fantasy artists, I probably wouldn't be in there. I mean, I'm a fantasy artist now because I've been doing this for 30 years and so I kind of forced myself in there and stayed. I think my stuff offers something slightly different than the other guys. But we all answer our problems with how they're given to you. And I didn't answer your question either by the look of it…

N: So, Common Sense sounds like it checks the box of early Magic. In that, what the hell do I do for Common Sense? How do I depict Common Sense?

D: Because Sorcery doesn't exist. I mean, it does now, but like it doesn't have like a written lore. It's even like it's built to not have a written lore. It's almost like those books where you’ve got to pick your own ending. Which I think is beautiful about this game. That, you know, you can build your own story throughout the whole thing. And I think that was Eric's intention on it, too. But because it's not held by these boundaries you get to do whatever you want and you get Yeah. Uh things like Common Sense like and you got to think about like what “how do you, how do you show that?” Like I'll get people going “I want you to do like a sketch on the the back of mine but I want the guy on a tree sawing” you know that old joke and he's on the other side of the cut. Of course it’s going to that mean he has no common sense. Well that means you're an idiot because that's not common sense. That's exactly the opposite of what you're looking for. So how do you show it? So in my head I always thought in my idea of common sense might be wrong but like it was “how do you solve problems with the things that you have sometimes” and that's to me…that card is about. He's got a stupid wooden fork and he's missing the tenon from the wheel to hold it, but the fork it's the right you know, circle hole thing. Which makes sense to me to fill that in to lock the wheel. Does that make no sense? So if you see the whole painting for Common Sense…sadly, there's a text box in the way. He is kneeling in front of a wooden wheel. That's the back of the cart. That's the axle of the cart. There's a hole where the tenon…is that correct?

Drew Tucker, Common Sense

N: Like spoke.

D: Yeah..not the spoke. Yeah. The axle, but which holds the wheel onto the axle. Being that it's empty, but he has this big stupid wooden spoon fork thing, which I think is cool. And it fits the size of the hole. Makes it make the perfect fit.

Audience: That goofy tool came back in the tool box.

D: Yes, it did. It's gonna come back again a couple of times. No, he asked me to bring it back for the tool box. I was really happy. Um, he was like, "Oh, yeah. Make sure you put that spoon in there." I was like, "Oh, there's no way I couldn't." But yeah, like how do you do Common Sense? Like what's common sense to you, right?

Audience: No. Nobody. No.

D: No. Not today.

Watte: I do know when I saw the art I was like, "Yeah, man. That's common sense."

D: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. No, I get a lot of people like, "Oh, what? I don't get it." I'm like, "Well, then you probably don't have common sense." Which is not how you respond apparently. That doesn't make people happy.

Audience: Drew, were there any particular parts of Sorcery that you really struggled to figure it out? Like figure out what it was or if it's anything really? They all sound pretty challenging.

D: That's like the coolest part about painting, right? Or like doing illustration. It is about solving problems. Painting is like just a different issue altogether. I always…I've got one now that I can't talk about that I'm like, "Oh, this one's causing me some problems about like…" So that's the end of that because I can't talk about that. I really like the assignments that they're giving me and they gave me for this one, too. You get like a bell tower. Common Sense was tricky because you're like, you know, how do you even show this without going back to that idiot on the tree? I've always hated that analogy. The one that I'm like I can't talk about, but I'm gonna talk a little bit about it. Like the thing that's really giving me problems is how to set it up. How to show it's like what actions would I do or what are the things that I need to be trying to use.

Watte: Like the steps you would take to achieve what you're trying to paint or something to show in the image.

D: Yeah…more so and that's why I'm also pausing going like “I can't use that word” because that would reveal some of the card. How do I build this up to…so some of it just, it's a little extra thought. Like if I was in this situation, what would I do, right? And so like the specific one that I can't talk about that I'm talking about, but not talking about is, what would I do? Like once I do this thing like what am I going to collect or what's going to happen. So sometimes it's more like that you know Belfry is easy you got a spooky bell tower. Just how do you arrange it and how do you destroy a lovely piece of architecture.

N: Could you talk about Pathfinder because I don't think Pathfinder…like I associate it obviously with Pathfinder now. And I think the painting is great as art. I think everybody here probably loves that.

D: I think that's a cool painting.

N: It's a great painting. How did you connect that to Pathfinder as the prose you're trying to match?

D: I wish I brought all this. There's so many sketches. Sometimes like Pathfinder, there's tons and tons and I went through all sorts of drawings of different male characters and female characters and Vikingesque looking things and like what to do and really like for the Avatar.I think I went a little against because like you're not necessarily supposed to show the face. Those early avatars, everybody's got a face in them. So, I think that's why I got to slide away and made it okay. The more challenging thing for Pathfinder because like I didn't even know what Pathfinder was going to do. They don't tell you what it's going to do. Right, Sam? Like, do they always tell you what the card's going to do? They just “here it is. Do it.” You're like, "Oh, okay. That's great." So I didn't even know how it was going to play. Pathfinder that, well, “it finds paths” and it's some magical person that's probably a sorcerer of some sort, you know. So, that's how I'm figuring it. The harder part was that I usually don't sign paintings. That's got my name. That spell. Behind her are my initials forwards and backwards, forwards and backwards, forwards and backwards because some other illustrator was giving me a hard time because I don't sign paintings. I'll sign them on the back, but I don't like signing them on the front because it ought to be about the painting in my head and not about who did it. It's good to know who did it. It's nice to get the credit for it, but like the credit should be the painting, I think. Um, but I get why you sign paintings. So just to be kind of like a smart aleck, that's why I put it in that spell. There's a couple of other ones where it's just like that. Like my name is just scrolled over the whole thing to go like “ah take that Jeremy!” Oh, because it was Jeremy, an illustrator that was like complaining to me about “you never sign your stuff. You should sign your stuff.” I'm like it's on the back. So it was more the trick on how to get my name in it.

N: When you say you went through different genders and a bunch of sketches, is that a common process or is that an abnormal.

D: No, no, no, no. There's tons of sketch work that goes on with everything. I probably have a sketchbook here with me and it's shameful to look at and I like to show people because it's like the birth of everything. My sketchbooks aren't flushed out. They're all chicken scratches and it looks like it's just lunacy and drawings on top of drawings. But I can make sense of it. It's to get that initial like “how it how it should look” or “how it should feel” and sometimes, you know, you try to get an emotion and sometimes you're just trying to make the coolest looking thing possible. It usually starts out really, really scratchy and you would look at them like, “I can't believe people even pay you money” “that this is what you do for a living” but you know, you take it from there and you refine it out. So there's always a lot of process, but when it's a tricky one where I'm not sure what it's going to do, like Pathfinder. Pathfinder is kind of that because like I I know it does find paths. I know it's got to be a wizardy thing and it's got to look kind of cool. I think that one was more like “how do you make it look cool?” And so that's why there was a lot of different figures trying to figure it out. I'm like, “I don't like this” and “this doesn't work” and but this is kind of gold. And then even when I have that last one…when I start I try to start really, I try to be very religious about like, yeah, this is what I gave them. This is what I'm going to do. But somewhere in there sometimes the paintings go like “ah no this has to happen” and little things start tweaking and changing which is not a good practice for an illustrator because you're supposed to go like “this is what I'm going to do and this is what it's going to be.” But that's not always how it goes…for for myself at least.

N: Do you read?

D: No, not at all. Freaking words are torture. No! I love reading. I love reading. I have a Zane Gray novel that I'm reading like it's a cowboy thing. My dad used to read Zane Grey all the time and my son came across it. He gave it to me when he came and visited. I love reading. Reading's great.

N: So what do you read the most of? Like what's your favorite genre? Your favorite author?

D: Uh, it's not Stephen King. I live two blocks from his house. So, that's just my side joke. Do I have a favorite author? I don't know if I have a favorite of anything. I liked reading Yates a lot…at a time. I liked reading Arthuerian Legends in different genres. I like reading about religions, right? So, not necessarily always diction. I like reading about cultures. But I am enjoying the Zane Gray book…off and on I read. I think it's really handy to read. When I was teaching I was amazed at how many people didn't read or knew how to use a ruler. That was frightening…

N: Do you feel the pressure as an artist, if you're not making art, you're not making money? And so is reading something that you can't do because you have a self pressure of “I could be painting now”?

D: No, I feel the pressure if I'm not making something, I'm not making something. It's just literally I procrastinate. I build furniture. That's how I procrastinate. I have to. It allows me to think about a painting. The other thing, I hike a lot or I like to kayak as well. I'm physically moving I think is what's going on. I think there's got to be a physical movement in there is more of the pressure. When I'm not painting, I get worried because I'm like, "Oh my god, you know, I need some money." That's scary because you don't have like…when I was teaching at least you had a paycheck. That's every month it's very steady. It helps feed people and but in art I make a good living. I make a better living as an illustrator than a teacher, which is weird. I’ve been really really grateful for it. But you know when you have those slow months I build a website. That's what I did this last time I worked out my website. I feel more like I always have to be making something. And it's not necessarily I'm afraid, sometimes I'm like “oh you're not getting a call” “nobody likes me” and that's spooky, but you know, then somebody will call. It's those weird dry spots that do make you worry. Illustration is a weird game because it's cyclical. In the 2000s, in the millennium, nobody liked rust anymore. I was working great up until like 2000 and then like everything became shiny and it was all chrome. Chrome everywhere and like I was not that guy. But everything's a circle and rust comes back.

N: When we talked earlier I thought it was interesting…so you get a commission from Erik or somebody and you have 10 pieces. And I though you would maybe do one piece at a time, but that's not necessarily what you do. You have multiple, but you're finding some commonality between them. And if you could just describe that.

D: Yeah. So, like at home right now in my studio, there's four paintings on. So, I have a bunch of different easels, too. But there's four rotating panels and I try to find the commonality of sometimes it's pallettes. Often it's an emotional commonality. So like I'm not doing something angry while I have to do something soft or something gentle next to a rougher piece. Because it's hard to flip back and forth. I mean you can do it, but it makes you a little nuttier than I want to be. So I break those paintings up into different emotional moments or landscapes to landscapes sometimes cuz the pallettes very similar. Often I think it's more about the emotion of the piece that comes into it.

N: And was that like self-discovery? Because I could imagine as a young person learning, you're not necessarily going to go buy four canvases and work on four things at one time. Is it just you had enough work at one point where you needed to optimize? The desperation of like how do you get all this done?

D: How do you get it done? You just like, oh, you just do it. It's nice when you get to just sit with one thing and nurse that around. But it's also I mean in painting one of the best things you can do is you paint and you should get up and walk away and come back to it and like look at it with a new face. Because we, as people, when we do things we almost have like mice vision and you're painting you just get in there and you miss everything else and if you don't step away you know that can kill the painting. But to do that many at once is really about like “oh man, I've got like 10 paintings to do and how much time?” And you just kind of have to have to do it. But it's wonderful when you can just spend the time with one. It's really nice, but you know, at the same time that's a weird one, too. I don't think I've ever just done one thing at a time.

N: I think this is a classic question for somebody that's not in art at all. Which would be, how do you know when the painting is done? Because it makes no sense. I can't understand. How would you know…

D: I don’t think they are ever done! Oh my gosh. Yeah. Like I look at paintings like you know that I did in the past and it's rough because they're in print now too. You're like “oh god like I shouldn't have stopped there” like “oh that shouldn't have happened.” There's always something that you want to tweak right. There's always something like it's never quite done. It's like a car guy. You ask him “so are you done building it now?” No. It could be immaculate, you know what I mean? But there's always something. Yeah. I mean, I could go back and go like, "Oh, I can't believe I let that little piece stay on there, and I didn't see that." You know, cuz I didn't step away properly. But like, it's done when the deadline says it's got to be sent. That's when it's done like you're over like I'm gonna walk away. But like Cave Trolls, right? Like Cave Trolls, I'm repainting it on the painting. Yeah, he used one of the process shots. It's kind of why it's a little grainier than the other paintings, right? It's a process shot! I went in and I like to me it was unfinished, I took all that color out because you're in a cave. There's no color in a cave. There's not enough light. Or like some grayed out thing and like the one I gave him was a grayed out and he goes and does that. I'm like, "Okay, I get it." So, I’ve got that back in the studio in a corner because like it's not done now. I've gone back and I've like glazed in some colors. I'm like, "So, I'm just going to like tool on that thing forever just for my own entertainment. But yeah. Yeah. I don't think some pieces that are absolutely finished, you know, like that's what worked. It's over. It's done. Dandan's one of them. Vertigo, I think, is another one that's like, "Oh, that was perfect." That's exactly what I wanted. Most of the things I've done for Sorcery are that way, too. Some of that is because I've been painting long enough to be able to call it, but I I still will see some spots where I can't believe I left it like that. I don't know if anything's ever done because for Gothic like there's the big…I think they showed it at like Vegas or something. I was commissioned by Simon to do like it was a it was a painting to like kind of goad Eric into doing Gothic. So it's the the spiral of angels and demons that they showed for like Gothic's release or something. I didn't know they were going to do that. But that one I just had to stop because I could have kept on going and going and going and going and going on it. It was driving me nutty. So I was like, "It's done. Here it is. Here's your painting." So sometimes it's like that, but I had like he gave me so much weird freedom to it that like I had to like just physically stop because I couldn't not. I was seeing like little faces and things where I didn't want to see faces which was cool because it was starting to make things on its own and then when I'd go to sleep I'd be seeing it like I'm done. I don't want to do this anymore. Sometimes it makes you stop, you know, like if you're smart, you'll listen to it. Sometimes the paintings will tell you to stop that they're finished. So often I want to go back and like, “oh, I could have done this to it.” I know I've done some specifically for Gothic where I was like, here it is. Here's the finish. This is what I said and now here's another version of it because that's not what I want. I do that a lot, too. If I have a different idea while I'm painting the painting, I'll paint another painting that's to solve the problem. If he uses it, that's great. And if not, who cares? It's not always finished when it's supposed to be finished but I think that's just part of…

N: We've done this for an hour. Does anyone want to ask a final question?

Watte: Do you like listen to music or anything?

D: I love Tom Waits. I can tell you right off the bat I freaking adore Tom Waits. I love listening to music. Sometimes I love listening to absolutely nothing though. I like listening to the trees that rustle. I love listening to the trees rustling…but I love Tom Weights.

N: All right, let's call it. It's been an hour. Thank you very much for the hour.

D: You're welcome.